Shiny Happy People - Part 2

Episode 47 Shiny Happy People.Part two Hey, everybody,this is Deborah and Wendy.Hello.You are listening to Grace in Real Life,the podcast for Christian women who desire to live out their faith in real life.This week we are talking about shiny,happy people.Part two.But before we get started,we do need to say that there are possible trigger warnings.This documentary series discusses pornography, sexual abuse, sexual assault,including those of children.Viewer discretion.Listener discretion is advised.All right.And before we even get into the discussion of episodes three and four, remember,this is a four part docu series.I want to give you a brief overview of episodes one and two before we talk about three and four.So if you have not seen the documentary or it's been a while since you've seen the documentary, episode one really dives into the history of the Duggar family.What Jim-Bob was doing before they became TV famous and exactly how they became TV famous.And then episode two dives into the history of the IBP and Bill Gothard and how it came to be.In episode three, we talk about what will they talk about?What it means to be under authority,and how Bill Gothard and Jim-Bob Duggar grow their shared vision into an international empire.And then episode four talks about how this movement is spreading and,for lack of a better word,infiltrating political systems and reshaping society in the image of the IBP.And social media.And social media. Yes.And the interesting thing about that they pointed out in the documentary is that people are sharing these beliefs of the IBP without even realizing they're IBP.And we started out kind of with my biggest pet peeve,which is that umbrella of authority.And I see that I cannot tell you the number of times I have shared with Wendy over the past year,the times I've seen that image shared as in the biblical truth of the way the House Bible household should be laid out.And it drives me crazy because there again, no biblical foundations.So if I'm seeing this all over,I also see we see all kinds of other things that are also in that same vein.And these are directly that specific imagery just, you guys know,is actually a direct teaching from from the.It's something that they created.It is an image that they created.So, yes, people are definitely sharing parts and pieces and things without solid theology,which I'm just going to put a little plug here, guys.Wendy and I have been talking over the past year with first thing we always tell you is to dig into the word.Mm hmm.Create a quiet time, spend time in the word and what I guess I want you to understand this.When you spend time in the word,your level of discernment for that which is not true, comes up.And I'm going to use this great example because I heard it the other day, a story I've heard over and over.You guys probably already know it,but when we are at this,it's probably anecdotal,but I like it, so I'm sharing it anyhow.They always say, like Secret Service people, they don't study bills that are not the they don't study bills that are not the American dollar.They study the American dollar.They know what it looks like, feels like smells like the bumps that ridges,the texture, everything about it,the way the faces look, everything.So when they see a counterfeit,it's inherently ingrained in them that they know it's counterfeit because it deviates from the truth.When we spend our time in the Bible and we are digging into the word and the theology of it,we will clearly see when something is not from the Bible or that is in direct opposition or that is used in correctly because we know the truth.So this is not a means of studying something that's untrue.We should be studying the truth because the when you know the truth,the dishonesty is easy to see.So that said,we are going to kind of kick off here into under the Authority.Now, one of the comments that I read on a couple of commentaries was this idea that there were seven basic principles.And the most important about all of it was this level of authoritarianism.And I'm actually going to use this in quote,I will drop a commentary below in the show notes.They say to say that humans are oh, dear, it like woot.There we go.I don't know what happened.It just blew out on me.I'm reading from website.It's a see, humans are capable of treating fellow humans in such a manner.Never mind your own family is appalling.Would be an understatement.However, according to Gothard,there is an umbrella of authority under which God protects us all.He's the highest authority, followed by the man in the family, the mother,then the children, his mom right at the bottom, meaning the man can essentially do anything in his power to make his wife and children listen to him.Added to this, a woman has to obey her father and is under his authority until it transfers to her husband when she gets married.And they actually discussed this in episode three when the Duggar girls get married.They're transferring that authority.I think they actually talk about that when Josh marries in a and then this kind of goes back to what Wendy said in the first one.And I like this quote and I will directly quote it.It says, This is where Bill,who himself is restless and childless,release his misogynistic ideas,that children are a blessing.And you should have as many as you possibly can because it's God's will,which is the the whole fundamental tenets of the quiver full movement.Mm hmm.But again,goes right back into that authority thing.You can hear authority.Authority, authority,which is what we're clearly talking about right now under authority in there.I think the commentary on the right up here is Bill Gothard and Jim Duggar share their growed vision.It's so much more than than Jim Bob Duggar and Bill Gothard like Bill Gothard.Yes, he was the head of it,but there were so many other players.Case in point I went looking for some stuff.I think Hobby Lobby, one of the biggest organizations.It's like, I think they donate one of the largest amount of money know to it goes to IBP.Mm hmm.So we're kind of starting to see some of the math,which Wendy,I think touched on a little bit,that the a lot of this has nothing to do with anything other than pride in the route of money loving or having money.And you can kind of see this sussed out in how they're pushing people.More seminars,more spread are encouraged growth and financial resources coming in to the ideal P itself and they do touch a little bit to on I think I think it was an episode two where they showed like the churches across the U.S.that maybe that was episode three when they were starting to do the.Yeah, the showing how it was growing like a room on the map of I'd be up growing across the country reminded me of the map of up of a disease spreading actually um,I don't know a better way to put it.Yeah, well, I'm going to touch on a little something here.Just because it's near and dear to my heart as a homeschooling mom.They touch.They talk a lot about homeschooling in a very negative light.And I want to make it very clear here.Homeschooling is not IBL schooling,and I'm going to call them two separate things just because they did I BLP Schooling at home does not make them homeschoolers in the sense that they were doing what I wanted and they were using ideal curriculum.That is the they were steeped only in that what I refer to as super cults and then homeschooling families.Are currently homeschooling.And let's be real.There's a lot of influence from ideal to movement for homeschooling,but what we can see is that there are homeschoolers on every walk of life.Now there are Christian homeschoolers,secular homeschoolers.There are schoolers.There are classical schoolers.You can find pretty much everything.A homeschooling community is as diverse as the amazing population is here in the United States,and I love that.Actually, it's one of my favorite parts of being a homeschool parent.But I do want to make it very clear that I hope schooling was build for the parents and families that are involved in this as a homeschool program that was going to like let your kids up for like massive success,a law degree, med degree.They pretty much learned all the things.Now, I didn't know anything about this curriculum,so I did go hunting because that's what I do.And you guys know I like research,so I actually found the wisdom booklets that they talk about in this.I didn't find all of them because they are not all out there, at least not online.But I was able to find quite a few of them.They have some interesting things in them.As I shared with Wendy earlier today,they were talking about some Greek language development.So foreign language development.Cool. Awesome.Then we dug into a little bit of medical stuff and found some very interesting things.As you guys both know,Wendy's a health coach.I'm a health coach.So of course, the health thing stood out to me and it was what I call health lite, meaning a touch on the body with this idea to attempt to sort of diminish the body system or the dysfunction in it as a spiritual issue only.And that's clearly not a true statement.Just No.No is not.And see, what you guys may not know is that the master's degree program that I'm in right now is pastoral counseling.And in one of the books in my courses,it describes pastoral counselors as practical theologians.So we are using the Bible and we are using spirituality to help you,to help you come to an understanding where God makes you whole again.But it is always about God.It's never about me, the counselor,It's about you, the Council,in your relationship with God.But one of the things you said something.You just said something.And now I lost my train of thought.It was about.Say what you said again.I said that they were showing the medical side of it as spiritual. Yes.So one of the in one of my earlier classes in foundations classes is that under that,we had to understand that not every problem is a mental health problem,and not every problem is a medical problem.Sometimes their spiritual,sometimes their mental health and sometimes their physical.But it's not always a spiritual problem.It's not always a mental health problem.It's not always a medical problem.So as a pastoral counselor,meaning a non-licensed counselor trained in theology,I must be able to discern which problem it actually is so that I can best help someone who comes to me.So I can't say, Well, you're sick every morning.You must have committed a sin like that would just be wrong and totally unfair because that's just literally not how God works.So yeah, that's what you said that and reminded me of that.And I wish I had the book sitting next to me so I could read it to you out of my book.But yeah, as a pastoral counselor,I am basically a practical theologian.And yeah, I have to agree that not every not every physical problem is a spiritual problem.And they definitely are trying to link it to here's this medical thing and here's how you can view it as a spiritual thing.And sure,but why not just put it in the context that it is like we don't.So like I'm going to use this example at it.Actually,I've got one of the wisdom booklets.I'm going to use this as an example.You talk about strabismus,which is just a lazy eye.Okay?You can have two lazy eyes,you can have one lazy eye, you can have one that rolls in.When that rolls out, actually,it can do a wide variety of things.It has nothing to do with you didn't do anything wrong.You've got some muscle imbalances in the way the brain is processing information.So it talks about strabismus and then it kind of talks about how the eyes are not focused on the same object.And then it was like, well,then it goes literally right into it.It does say that it's a lack of muscle coordination in the eye, which is true.But then right moves into spiritual strategies and takes place when one eye is focused on the Lord and the other is on the world.Are not right.I may not have named after my name,but dang, that's wrong in there. You know, they're trying.They use the reference of James one eight where we can't be double minded,but we're also not having one eye on the world and one eye on the thing.That's actually not how we do this.It's actually not how we participate in the world.And I think they're trying to give a an allegory here that they missed the mark on in trying to explain a medical issue and a spiritual issue that are actually just so wildly different.I mean, don't get me wrong, like learning about the eyes is fascinating.I like it.And I want to say this again.Clearly homeschool programs,there are those of us that homeschooled in the nineties were not the ones that homeschooled in the eighties.We had different curriculum.Most of it was a Christian school curriculum,like full on curriculum that was provided still actually exists today.I still sell it.I was just at the homeschool convention this past week.You can still see Rote and I would call it a robust curriculum.They mimicked much of what was taught in the public school, taught slightly differently, usually with a Christian emphasis.So you might learn about math and just math,but it also might have a Bible curriculum in addition to it.And so there's this curriculums were designed for private schools.Then they got used for homeschool families in the nineties.And we do know that there is some of the gathered influence of homeschooling for all of the early parts of some of homeschooling,some of the early stuff.But I would like to caution everyone to say I've seen a couple of things saying, well,all homeschooling was from this.And I actually disagree because I was one of those homeschooled kids.And while I saw shades of this,this was never anything that our family was interested in.This was never even the root of why we wanted to homeschool.Oh, it just wasn't. So I feel like the documentary took a little bit of a negative kind of turn with the large movement towards homeschooling.And again, there are plenty of non-ideal PE people homeschooling, right?You see homeschooling literally across every demographic, every belief system.And there's a reason that we don't want our there's a reason people don't want their kids in school.And I and I should rephrase and say there are reasons because when you poll people,the number of reasons are wild.It could be learning difficulties,it could be travel,it could be wanting to world school, it could be,you know,some kids have some kids are gifted and talented in some cities, still don't have gifted and talented programs or they've used the money in other ways.They it's it's so disingenuous just to kind of throw this sort of negative spin entirely at the homeschool movement.And I feel like they kind of did,but then they would kind of undermine themselves a little bit because I think some of the speakers commented on homeschooling in a positive manner,not necessarily their ideal stuff,but in general, like the movement itself.But I feel like it was a little bit of a dig.I'm going to be honest, if you like.It was a little bit of a dig as far as if the public school system was the answer to all of it.And you I will let that go.I just think like started looking a little bit about who they were having speak.There was only one pastor.Right.And he was very prominent and showcased in this particular one also that women's studies speaker was not a theologian.She was a women's studies. Mm hmm.I'd like to know a little more on her background.It's basically why she was picked for the start.Right. So basically,this wasn't.Okay.So documentaries like this,like the secrets of Hillsong,like shiny, happy people,they're really more exposed.So they're not there to teach you the right thing.They're there to expose what the wrong thing was.And so I think that's why there are no other pastors that the only reason why that one pastor was there is because he's also a journalist and was actually doing a lot of writing on the subject.That's why you don't see any other any theologians,because for them, that's not the point of the documentary, because the point of the documentary is not to teach you what the Bible actually says about the things that Bill Gothard and Eyeball teach.The point of the documentary is to say,Look at how crazy messed up these people are,and we've let them into your homes and we've let them into seats of power.And oh my gosh, aren't you shocked by this?I agree.I feel like the same way I watched like you said, I watched after watching both of all four of these,I also turned around and watched the documentary on Warren Jeffs and the FLDS kind of that fall.And like all the breakdown And why why it all kind of fell apart.And you can kind of see roots of the same thing in both of these.And I'm sure you probably can make some ins from Hillsong,and I know I can make some tie ins from the Scientology documentary that I watched. All right.So let's talk a little bit about this Underoath sorry thing where it had to be in like all the the Android Authority was very hyper,hyper focused on females.And I really want to make this very clear.It was very hyper focused towards females.Now, what we didn't see in the documentary,and I clearly am going to say that it probably we don't see in the male curriculum is this idea of males dressing provocatively, males in the community,doing things that took their,can you say virginity for a man?Yeah.Okay.Virginity like we don't I don't really feel like any really exists on the male side.It was very female centric and you start hearing this a little bit like they had this six inch rule.Look,everybody needs to be six inches apart.You got to make room for the Holy Spirit.Yeah, You're making,you know, strict, just strict dress.Again, I feel directly mostly towards women because males,male clothing tends to be perceived as the neutral point for whatever reason.Like men tend not to be included even in the public school system when they have dress codes,aside from aside from no baggy pants and no, you know, certain profanities and like things like that, they never say,you know, keep your shoulders covered.It might distract a female student.It tends not to be in that way.It tends to be all directed at women.And so clearly in this particular set up,we also see all of that.So they've got, like I said, strict dress guidelines, strict music guidelines.They did actually talk about no sex education,which I thought was really interesting.Right.And but like at home either.So. Right.So like one of the things that kind of stood out to me as a homeschool mom,also our guys, I worked as a I've been a birth doula, so birth education and procreation education,for lack of a better description,is something that has been preeminent in our house,because I really believe that a robust anatomy and physiology program is good understanding exactly how your body functions,how your partner's body functions.Eventually is very important,but you, many people end up in problems or making a baby when they didn't want to, or vice versa.Conversely, not being able to get pregnant when they want to because something is not because something is wrong,but because they have a lack of understanding of which anatomy does what.I think all of this stuff is really important,and I was really surprised that they actually targeted at home.Like we're not allowed to talk about our bodies at home.No, no mention of consent.Clearly, authority doesn't have consent because really, that umbrella of that umbrella really states there's the word submission is in there a lot, if you like.I hear that all the time.Submit, submit, submit them like, okay.And it it's very interesting because I was reading a book called Contagious,which I actually recommended to you.I I'm reading it.I'm almost done. It's fabulous.Do you remember the story about the drug essays? Yes.And how there was the way in which they did one type of drug PSA actually increased drug usage rather than decreasing drug usage.And I feel like this is the same thing here when you don't talk about these things,whether that's sex or money or relationships or what have you.When you don't talk about these things,it's not for the betterment of kids because they're going to grow up not understanding how basic things work.If you don't teach your kids about money,they're going to make all the money mistakes.I promise you,if you don't teach them about sex,they're just going to find out on their own or other people are going to teach them,and then they have no foundation.They have no so.Much of it is so much which kids find is so wrong.I've heard crazy things from my crazy things from my daughter's friends, and I'm all like, I'm sorry, but this is literally biologically not true.Yeah.So there was there was a show I'm dating myself called Give me a break in the eighties.Knew this one.It was it was a great show. Starred Nell Carter.I don't know this one, too.So you guys know I am the same age as Mindy.So but when watched a lot of TV.Never did not. I don't know.Give me a break.In this show, Nell Carter plays a nanny, more or less to the family of this police officer.And one of the girls, one of the daughters gets upset one day because she thinks she's pregnant.And the reason she thinks she's pregnant is because she kissed a boy and she thought that that's how you got pregnant.Oh, well, that's just not true.Yeah. Yeah.But again, when we don't teach,when parents don't teach and, you know, I,I shouldn't say weak because I don't have any kids,but when parents do not teach these things,there's nothing for your child to fall back on.Last year at our church,we did a whole series called Eden,and we made sure that there were resources available to parents and other adults on how to talk about sex with your kids in a loving and Christian way.Not to mean it is appropriate, right?That's appropriate in not to be puritanical about it,but just to have age appropriate discussions.Because age appropriate discussions about anatomy are important and answering kids questions and not letting them search things because you didn't answer their questions.Yeah, the whole thing.Well,so let's round out sort of this idea here real quick because there's so many other things we can touch on.So, yes, definitely hyper controlled, hyper fixation.I actually really like one of the commentaries I found and basically this idea of Gothard creating a system that points out problems and providing the solution.Oh, we have to talk about devil sticks.Oh, and endlessly necklines. Yes.All right, let's hit double sticks first, because.Look. Girls.So at I hate to call it a camp because then that just insults camps.But at this thing where this young lady was, she's telling the story about how when she was younger, she was at this camp and I put that in air quotes.And the leader, her group leader was not much older than her, but basically had control over whether or not she had a good experience or a bad experience.And so once a week they would go to Walmart to get things.And she got a box of tampons because she needed tampons.Well, she got in trouble because how dare she use a tampon that could break her hymen and rob her future husband of taking her virginity.And so she was like,Fine, here you can have my devil sticks.Mm mm.If you're taking a deep breath right now to keep from hitting something, so is Debra.Again, this goes back to and and a lack of understanding of human anatomy, even from the purist side.Mm hmm.There are.Yeah,there's just a lack of understanding.This is.This is where we start getting into concerns.And I understand parents concerns with not wanting the public school to teach sex education because the that I have seen for the curriculum I'm not okay with.Mm hmm.Because I think we go I think the public school goes too far to one direction,meaning we're we're in the conversation point of beyond way beyond the anatomy side, right?We're teaching methodologies and all kinds of things that, quite frankly,do not need to be taught. Mm.They just don't.And adults, consenting adults can educate themselves further.But when you're introducing things to children, it needs to remain appropriate, be it needs to remain anatomy based.But we have a lot of misinformation clearly across the board,and they hear it from all kinds of people.They'll be like, Hey, this is true.And I might actually it's not.Yeah, we get myths.This is why I write things about myths all the time.I know Wendy does the same thing with diabetes, right?Like we talk about pregnancy myths. Why?Because people have bad myths about it.We talk about breastfeeding myths. Why?Because guess what?There's myths there, too.We talk about exercise myths because there's this because the problem is, is like we have this network of communication and we share things.And just like I believe we have seen that,you know,things spread and into and they're not right.So devil sticks there. Yes.And that one just just that's a whole thing.The other.What was the other one we were in to talk about lace collars.Okay. So wisdom booklets.Wisdom booklets.These wisdom booklets are really interesting.One of the they had little activities and I actually have not found the wisdom booklet, but that was the book Wisdom.Oh my goodness,I can't speak wisdom booklets that were showcased in the shiny Happy People.I did find some other ones.One of the things that they showcased in Shiny happy people was basically this hyper fixation on modesty,and they would have pictures of women's dress and the in the wisdom booklets you would have to circle the thing that was leading men astray.And they showcased something like a three inch hand,a three inch slit in a skirt that was below the knee.They showcased the lace neckline and he basically they were in different things and they went through these booklets and they would have to circle they were actually circle them.And it was kind of just,again, this guy thing.I was not going to say it, but yes, it is.It was I was I was borderline not of trying to trying to be nice,but it really it really is.Because what you're doing is you're looking for again,this is know we've talked about this.We're looking for an external link of an internal change.The problem with it is, is when we humans decide that that external look should look like we literally step into legalism and honestly,the worst way.Not only that,but this hyper fixation on the clothing that a girl or a woman wears presumes that if something happens to her,it is her fault.And so speaking as a survivor of sexual assault,there are still too many people who think that what a woman wears means she is begging to be assaulted and that is victim shaming.And that is so, so wrong, because if it had anything to do with that,then these fundamentalists,these conservatives, whether it's Christian or Muslim or Jewish,then sexual assault wouldn't exist.It's actually because they're so covered and so modest in their apparel.So clearly, this is not about clothing.We know it's about power.It's exactly this.No, this is what ambiance.Everything through this entire documentary that we're listening to is about power and control.Know power and control and hypersexualization in the and it's not even hypersexualization in the way that we would look at it from a media standpoint.Rightly, we see hypersexualization in Hollywood, meaning we've gone the other way.Women are naked,women are wearing no clothes.Women are very, very sexually provocative.The flip side of that is hypersexual is hypersexualization in modesty,because it becomes a weapon,it becomes a means of power.You're not modest enough.There is never enough modesty for somebody who is looking to exert power.In that person. Here's the thing about that.The irony in our society,like if you look at,for example, the difference between the uniforms of a women's beach volleyball team and a men's beach volleyball team.Mm hmm. Why?Why do we think that the women perform better if they're wearing a sports bra and briefs?Because it's not about performance.They even say the same thing about women's swimwear.Some of the some of the more modest Olympic swimmers have been wearing,like the full units, arts and things placing, well, yeah,and there's precedence for it.The men's uniforms are clearly some of them where the I was surprised by the number of men's uniforms when I started to get hypercritical that were they went down to their knees.Mm hmm.Not just the tiny Speedos because one would argue that some swimwear is like male swimwear versus female swimwear.Women tend to have definitely more clothing, generally speaking.But you know that we've seen in recent years and by recent years,I mean the last several Olympics,so probably the last 12 years,you know, it's a trend towards allowing modest dress.And it's interesting because swimming, swimming allows it.But to Wendy's point about the female volleyball players,there's actually a team that requested more modest uniforms and they were denied.Yeah, clearly this has nothing to do about performance and everything to do about selling something.Exactly.If you look at the way if you look at the length of shorts that are available for girls and women to buy.I know.I know.Debra, you're going to chime in because you've got two daughters in this chapter.You're hired.But it also bothers me, too.Like I went to the store last week.I am 43 years old, you guys, at the time of this recording, I am 43 years old.I'm not trying to wear shorts with a three inch inseam that look barely longer than my underwear.Okay, So when I got to the Gap outlet and I saw that there were Bermuda shorts,I was excited.I needed four pair because I did not want to be without long shorts.And it's not because I'm ashamed of my body. That's not it at all.But again, who am I exposing this for?Like, I'm.I am married, I have my husband is the one I want to love my body.And for me I'm more comfortable in Bermuda shorts.If guys can have longer shorts,why can't I have longer shorts?Because somebody wants me to be sexualized as a woman and therefore have shorter shorts that like we used to only call Daisy Dukes.Now Daisy Dukes are like the norm.All right, Deborah, go ahead.Oh, it's just my I've just been shopping for shorts this past week.My daughter,my youngest one, is going to camp and they have a requirement of longer shorts that I have been blessed with a child who has long legs. Mm.And so regular shorts look short and long shorts look normal.And as my friend said today,because she's like,How are you doing with all like finding like the preparations? And I was like,well, I finally found something.And she said, and I'm going to quote her,I know she'll let me that she finally gave up and just went to the boys department and boss boys clothes.Mm. And I find that insulting. Mm.It shouldn't need to buy boys clothing to be perceived as modest because someone doesn't approve of the length of clothing that is universally accepted.Mm hmm.The flip side of that is if I want long shorts and real active pockets, by gosh,golly darn, give them to me.Exactly. Yeah.If we could do a whole episode.I have a hard time with both things.Like, you can't Products that are not you can't demand.People wear things that don't exist.Mm hmm.But you also like, you know,you can't tell them that what they're wearing is immodest because you don't like it.And that's kind of what I it's kind of what I see is we're getting this hyper,this idea of hyper sexuality in like this hyper modesty variation.But the problem is, is there's never you're never modest enough because someone will always perceive it as not modest enough.We had this issue with my older child when, you know,she has more of a dress,less legs and, you know,bathing suits, they look different on her than on another young lady.Mm hmm.And then it was, well,you have to wear a t shirt.You might make someone uncomfortable.Mm hmm. Mm hmm.And we're now in the process.Body shaming.Mm hmm.And again,this kind of goes back. It's just.It just drives me crazy,Which till we tell women we need to love ourselves,we tell women we need to,you know, do all these things,but we literally turn around and hate on everything that we have that's available to us.Mm hmm. And then.But not that it's available to us, that we choose it as if it's a choice.Right? Right.Because a year ago, at that same gap,I was not able to find Bermuda shorts.I the longest shorts I could find had a five inch inseam.Yeah.And so by what's not available. Right.And so that's what I ended up with.The literally the only reason I was at the store buying new shorts this year, guys, was because thank God,I went down to pant sizes.So I tried myself to new shorts because I didn't want the things falling off.So I'm actually going to I'm going to use a literary reference because I like literature, you guys.All right.So I grew up watching Lucy Maud Montgomery's televised version of and of Green Gables. Hmm.Not the new one.And with an E, but the old version.But I had never read the books.So my oldest child, probably about eight years ago now, we did this book club.It was awesome.We had these young ladies and we would pick a different book and we would read the book and.Then we would come to the following month and we would discuss the book.And one of the young ladies picks it of Green Gables.And I was like, Cool, I love the movie.I'm going to love the book.And I absolutely, unequivocally hated it.And I didn't finish.I know people rave because the thing that bothered me the most was in the movie and in gets chastised frequently for looking at herself and being hypercritical.And they always say we are so vain.In the book,she gets in trouble for looking at herself and calling her, and they call her name.Mm hmm.But they spend half their time talking about how she looks as adults and then wondering why she's standing in the mirror looking at herself,not thinking she's pretty.Because they've commented on her freckles,they've commented on her hair color,They commented on her skin color.They commented on how,you know, she's like all of these things.And it was constant to the point in which I could no longer tolerate reading it.And I put the book away and I did not finish.It was the most frustrating thing that I've ever read because it was they were angry at the person who was hyper fixated.But the reality was they were there for she was.Mm hmm.They were only mad at her for the reflection of themselves.And this is what you see right here in all of these things.Yeah.We've got people that were hyper sexualizing things that shouldn't have been. Therefore,they focused on it.Then they became this idea of hyper modesty.And therefore, women were always wrong.Young ladies were always wrong.And we even get phrasing nonsense like double sticks and tampons being,Oh, sorry, that's kind of this,you know, it's just the.There you go.I'm not funny, but I was going to tap your hide,and I knew you're going to say that.It's this my nicely of being like it makes me irrationally angry.Mm hmm. Mm hmm.So let's talk a little bit here, and we'll move away from the modesty question.We move into a little bit about the spread of ideology as we get into the secondary part here.Are the arrows activated?Because I will say most of the under authority was talking about that sort of hyper fixation.Talking a little bit about how they managed abuse within the church and they didn't actually use anything, any outside resources they thought they knew best.Which is to say they did not manage it, and that the episode also talks about the use of unpaid child labor to help build the empire.It's not as talked about,I would say, as much as the purity culture is,except as it relates back to Joshua Duggar.And when he was a teenager,he was sent away to deal with his issues, shall we say.And in sending him away,he was sent to a place where he was basically performing unpaid manual labor.And actually,I found that really kind of interesting about the manual labor.And they're basically this idea of like going somewhere and sort of paying penance by doing manual labor.And that actually mimicked some of the stuff that I saw in the Scientology documentary,which I thought was kind of an interesting comparison between the two.They used a lot of unpaid labor from children where they were trying to elevate themselves as a as a group and an organization.And then there were child performers and child laborers and child these things in this things.And their parents voluntarily sent them to these things, believing guys.I think is one of the things that's really important here,because it would be easy to throw the parents under the bus.But when you're in a situation like this and we can look at Scientology,we can look at the FLDS, we can look at so much of it when you're in a cult.And all of these are super cults, right?I don't know if that's a phrase,a real phrase or not.I coined it.I think I call them super because they're they're huge.They're far reaching.And there are lots and lots of people involved in them.But you can see the the manipulation.You can see the desire for well-being.Like parents are trying to choose the things that are best for their children.Unfortunately,they're literally just choosing wrong.And it's not like parents are doing these things out of hate for their children.Even in like the Scientology documentary,I think they sent some kids down to like a performing ship down in like Miami or something.My memory on the details.Is. Fuzzy.However,the guy listened to the commentary of the parents and they were just really excited for their kids because they got selected for a cool opportunity and something that they had hoped would help them in the future.Meaning, you know, you did these programs and they taught you these skills and let's be real. We all need skills.So it's like all these things I up FLDS,all this stuff is predicated on this skill set that's going to take you to the next level that's going to help you grow.And I don't think anybody selects all of this stuff out of just willful destruction.I think a lot of these parents did things like this and send their kids because they love them and they wanted them to have amazing opportunities and an area that they felt was safe.I will tell you guys this safety is an illusion.There is no such thing as safety ever.Like, we can be prayerful.We can be hopeful.We can sit rest with the Lord.We have to understand safety is an illusion.Okay,this does document a little bit,I think this one about how IBP comes under fire collectively from the whole,because I think Bill Gothard actually goes to court for one of the victims, an underage,underage sexual assault victim,I believe, in episode three.They talk about that a little bit and how it starts to unravel some of his power.And then Bill Gothard himself,I believe, steps down from the idea.And so we kind of see this,but let's be honest,he's trained so many high profile people in his organization.I think we know about Jim Bob Duggar and the Duggar family because of TLC.However, I don't think we know who any of the other individuals are and didn't really showcase anyone.Else except his brother.Oh, that's right.They did showcase his brother.Also a predator.Also a predator.But the yes, I thought it was interesting because Jim Bob is clearly showcased Gothard has clearly showcased,the brothers clearly showcased.But we don't see any of the other individuals that has potentiality of being connected into this area or other what I would call leaders.So clearly AGI,which is the Advanced Training Institute,was run by a group of leaders.Clearly the basic life principles was run by a group of people,and we only see Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar from that perspective.So this is really just written from one viewpoint and they did not clearly,they didn't do a ton of research into exposing who those other people were.Now, whether it's because they were told they not allowed to,whether it's because they didn't care to or whether because they were really just trying to focus on the TLC variation of,you know, it's shiny, happy people and unearthing all of the information from, you know,pardon me, 19 kids and counting,and just basically really exposing how this seemingly very pleasant,very Christian, very, you know,like Pinnacle Family was literally none of that.Oh, and the other thing that we did not talk about from episode three was how the kids didn't get paid.Exactly.We're going to talk about blanket training.No, no, we're not going there.Okay, great.Because that would make me I don't think I could handle that one.That would make.No, but The kids didn't not get paid. No.I guess they were supposed to.And there they were.They showed copies of contract where Jim, Bob and Michelle signed on behalf of their children that were no longer minors.In addition to that, and I believe if I recall correctly, based on reading oh, goodness, it was the book was I'm glad my mom died.Oh, by.What's her name?The Jennette McCurdy.Jeanette McCurdy.And she talks a little bit about a similar they were she was not able but she talks about how her parents didn't set up her Coogan account and then her parents basically,specifically her mother happened to actually steal all of the money that she earned.And I was actually surprised.I wonder if this is and again,this is just a question, but I do wonder if there's some looseness in the laws not protecting families that do sort of these contracts with TLC because it's a family contract rather than a child contract,because I was a little surprised that they didn't have Coogan accounts.I was a little surprised that the parents did send to their adult children and that TLC had accepted that as a legal documentation.Because I would assume, like for me,I would assume that their legal department would be like, this doesn't count.We know they're adults because they clearly know they're adults.Right.We see some of the same behavior in the scenes.Your wife show the children did not get paid.But clearly,some of the stuff I find interesting in the Sister Wives, they've talked about some of the children not being on the show and showcased at all and because they asked not to be.And so therefore,obviously they were not being paid,but they also were like, we're not we don't want to be in the we don't want to be showcased.And so they only they did limited numbers of of how much the kids were on the television show itself.Mostly it was the adults that were obviously being paid.And I wonder if that fallout is because of some that happened with the Duggar family.Mm hmm.And how their children were clearly taken advantage of.I'll be honest,I am actually a little astounded.I probably ought not be, but I am a little astounded that that there wasn't money set aside.Yeah. Like there was a situation where Jill.Who's Jill Duggar?Dillard is the main one telling.Speak to Dillard or Ginger Dillard.Is Jill.Which one has the last thing Rolo Ginger.Okay.But Jill is the one who does the majority of the interviews in the series.So Jill and her husband talk about how when they were being missionaries out of the country and TLC was like, hey,you guys need to come back.And they're like, No, we don't.And they're like,Yeah, it's in your contract.It turns out it was a contract that Jim-Bob had basically given to Jill the day she got married.But Jill didn't read.She wasn't able to read the contract, not because she can't read, but just I think.That, you know, it's ginger.I think it's Ginger Boileau.If I had those backwards.Jill is the one in the documentary.Yes, Ginger is the other sister. Yes.So but basically Jill's point was she was only given the signature page.She didn't know what she was signing and she trusted her parents to her detriment.So when they get back stateside,her husband's having this conversation with Jim-Bob about them not being paid and is like, well,what do you want, $10 an hour?Oh, yeah, that insulted me.Yeah,like minimum wage.Not even minimum wage in some states. Right.It is minimum wage in my state,but not even minimum wage in a lot of states.Target pays more than that.Starbucks pays more than that.It's not even the payment.It's the.It's the insult that his wife was required to give birth on television for $10.The slap in the face from a parental figure in that is just I don't know how she has a relation or if she has a relationship with her parents,because I don't think I could.Mm hmm.Because that's a it's again,it's another form.Because this is a just a lot of what you're hearing is another form of abuse.This specifically is called financial abuse.Mm hmm.And it is a form of abuse.I don't care what anyone says.You can. It's documented.It doesn't matter.You do not need to be hit in order to be abused.Right.And so in episode four,now what we have is this is this realization that this IBO movement and the ideals of the IBO have have spread like a disease,like I said before.That's going to be wildfire causing damage everywhere it goes.Yes, I just like the disease metaphor better because it's 20, 23.Well, no wildfires would fit two.Thank you, Canada.But, you know, in in seats of power and politics in retail corporations and a lot of it is political social media influencers, your Christian influencers.One of the couples they had on the show was Pauline Morgan, who claimed that they were that the docu series was misrepresented to them.So they don't feel like they're that they were represented fairly in shiny, happy people.I don't watch.Pauline Morgan So if you're watching this on YouTube and you do watch Harlow Morgan,let us know if you thought they were fairly portrayed or what is the deal with Pauline Morgan?Yeah, I'd be curious to see what other people say based on based on observation from the documentary versus observation, what they know.And guys, again I'm going to drive this home.If you're not spending time in your Bible.Mm hmm.It is very hard to discern what is true and what isn't, because you don't know and you are not relying on someone else to tell you.That's somebody else walking your faith for you.And I'm going to be honest with you,no one can walk your faith for you because when you're put to the test,that's you, not someone else.You can't be looking around seeing if anyone else is being like, Yeah,that's how you're supposed to do this,because you can be wrong.And we've clearly seen over the past couple of years where social proof,the loudest voice in the room is not the correct voice.That's why also in the show notes, you're going to find links to the Verity podcast by Felicia mason Heimer.She has a blog called Every Woman a Theologian.You're also going to find a link to the channel,the YouTube channel, How to Faith, A Life with Faith Womack. She is a seminary graduate as well,and her husband is a youth pastor who often appears in her videos.But yeah, faith is a great person to learn from about how to read the Bible.Felicia is a great person to learn from,about how to understand and put current events into context.So we highly recommend that you check out those resources as well.Felicia also has the Verity conference that's coming up in October in Michigan,I think.But you can attend online,which is what I'm doing.So that link will be in the show notes as well.Yeah,there's all kinds of stuff.I think that actually, to be honest,I really think that kind of wraps up.But all four of those episodes sort of neatly.Yeah.I will say this if you grew up in an ideal situation or you're finding,like I did a name for some of the things that you saw and again, communities had all of this.So if you're finding just a name for it,you know,it might take you a little bit of time to understand where it came from.And I will remind you, please turn to your Bible for the truth. Yes.Not somebody else, not, you know,just really give you some great resources.But if your finding, you know, just kind of like feeling a little bit adrift.Dig in to that Bible because you know what?Just talking about this subject and realizing that maybe something that you don't believe or that you believe is actually not something that you should believe.That's actually really hard,especially as an adult,especially if you happen to be closer to when in our my age,you know, we get these ideas that we're fixed in, like we get stronger and stronger viewpoints as we get older.Reality is there's always room to grow.So please,please do your growing in the world really want you to.And if you just need somebody to talk to.We do have means for you guys to contact us.We would be happy to if maybe if you have something you want to share,we would be happy to do that as well.And the other thing to remember is,you know, you do you don't have.We're not meant to do this life alone,so we're not meant to do our faith alone.We're not meant to experience life alone.So we're trying very hard to build a community here,and we want you to be a part of that community.But one of the things that we encourage you to do in tech,if you don't know where to start with digging into the word is start with our21 day Foundations of Faith Bible plan.You can find it at Faith Bible plan dot com and it is just three weeks of verses for you to read and meditate on so that you can explore the foundations of your Christian faith.So it's faith Bible plan dot com.That link will be in the show notes.Again, it's just 21 days for you to really dig into the word it's free.You guys who are totally not charging for this,we just want you to be grounded in your faith, know what you believe and why you believe it.And if you have questions or you don't know how to find something.I would really encourage you to reach out to us.Wendy and I, we wrestle with our faith.This is not something we find easy.We learn stuff.We struggle with certain topics.And one of the reasons why we talk about the things that we're talking about is because we wrestle with these topics,like even watching the document,even watching the documentary.And then all of a sudden I was given a voice for and a name for some of the things that I've seen for a long time that they have not sat well with my heart and for a as a discernment principle like my I knew biblically that they were wrong, but I didn't understand where they came from.And, you know,Wendy has listened to me really wrestle with this over the past year and large amount of frustration for not being able to pinpoint certain things and understanding that they weren't right,that you guys have to understand,like this faith thing can be hurt.So if you need help finding something, please,please don't hesitate to reach out.Like we're not saying that we're paragons of virtue here.We're telling you guys we are wrestling,and that's why we're sharing with you guys, because we want you to understand that real life is messy.Real life requires some mercy.And yes,sitting next to each other in bad times and in good times,this is a real part of faith.And you have that. Hmm. Sorry. Go ahead.I think I was just saying sanctification is an ongoing process.It's not a one time thing that happens when you get saved.That's not what sanctification is.And it's a life long process until we reach glorification.So when we have good examples to think about, the early church,they came together, they prayed,they came together and sold goods.Someone could have something.They came together and they broke meals.They came together in their struggles.They came together in their triumphs.They like that's what we're supposed to do.And if anyone is telling you that once you're saved, you've arrived.They're wrong.No, you're wrong.The work is just beginning.It is.It is because God has God has a plan for everyone.And he loves everyone.But that means everyone.Despite what a lot of people like to put that little caveat,well, maybe not know everyone.And it's gotten messy.True. Messy. Because humans are messy.Mm hmm.And I just want that to be really driven home.If you guys were feeling slightly distressed from this or maybe a lot distressed from this,you have in your and us, we're here for you.So that is actually all we have for today.We hope you have enjoyed this two part series on Shiny Happy People,which is available for free on Amazon Prime.If you have Amazon Prime,if not, you may have to buy it.But it is it is a good docu series.We have warned you about potential triggers.So again, viewer discretion if you want to check that out.So remember also that you can leave us a message at grace in real life dot com because we have a website now where you can leave us a voicemail.You can also leave a comment underneath this YouTube channel at on our Grace in Real Life podcast YouTube channel.Or you can message us on Instagram at the handle Grace in real life media.That was a lot, but it's all in the show notes.I promise you, it's okay if there's a way that you want to contact us.It's going to be in the show notes.You can also email us at Hello at Grace in real life dot com.If what you need to say is more private in nature or just longer than a nine second voicemail.Don't forget to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and on the YouTube channel.Share this episode with your friends and family and leave us a review because that helps others find our show and allows us to serve more listeners.And with that, Deborah,will you close us out in prayer?Yes, Dear Lord.Thank you so much for all of the information that we were able to find, the willingness of each of the individuals who were willing to do the brave thing and come and stand forward and share the challenges and the difficulties and the horrifying things that they experienced so that others can be aware that their eyes can be opened and that healing can begin.Healing can begin because we are able to give a voice to it.And Lord are just so grateful for those individuals.Lord, I just pray for those that might have a voice.Yet I pray that they start to see what you want to see and that they can feel your love.And I just pray for all the rest of us.Lord Then we just have a lot of mercy and a lot of grace and that we are willing and open arms for people who are struggling and suffering.In your name, I pray, Lord.Amen. Amen.All right. Until next time, everyone. By.